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February 07, 2012, 07:01:58 AM
 

Author Topic: Defining Characters  (Read 19658 times)

Strategy

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Defining Characters
« on: February 17, 2002, 05:42:16 PM »
Currently revising the design docs a bit, in between working on the Ph.D. stuff. One issue I've been working on, is how to best define the "leaders" in the game world in respect to the game world.

Question: by what factors would you categorize a political/national leader, in order to capture his "political personality". In particular, I'd like to formulate this definition as "generically" as possible; i.e. such that the same attributes would make sense irrespective of the time period.  I have my own ideas on this, but I'd like to hear your ideas as well.

As examples of such attributes, we might have attributes such as:

Xenophobia:
A measure of how the character reacts to other cultures/peoples/nations. High level would be an isolationist type, unwilling to get involved in binding treaties (and if involved, only to wage war against other cultures), and wary of neighboring powers gaining too much strength. Low level would be an open attitude, willing to conclude binding treaties for mutual benefit and more trusting of neighboring states.

Custom/Tradition:
A measure of how much the character respects tradition. A high value indicates a conservative-minded character, who values the customs of his people highly and despises people who break with these. A low value indicates a person open to new ideas, and who sees traditions only as worth something if they are of advantage.

(Note: These are not necesarrily the attributes I plan to put in the game, but just examples to give you some idea of what I'm talking about).

The floor is open for your comments.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Philj

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2002, 06:53:57 AM »
I started to reply to this earlier today but I received the Maintenance message after I posted  :'( - you have a very white forum now.

Anyway, my first thought was for some idea of vindictiveness - to what extent do leaders hold a grudge.  More generally, this could be a political memory lag variable.

A second idea, inspired by local politicians, is flexibility - how wedded is the leader to a 'cause'.  Would he be willing to drop land reform to increase power or is he likely to get killed fighting for it.

I'm not sure I haven't picked up personal traits here but ...

One thing that had annoyed me about computer games has been that you know how good someone is as soon as he arrives.  It seems that we should find out if someone is a dud from results and not from knowing the stats before hand.  Admittedly, hindsight means I will know Scipio/Hannibal to be a reasonably good leader before hand, so for consistency reasons you may not.

Cathaginian Assembly:
Do we attack Rome?
No we wait for 10 years until Hannibal is of age and let him rip.  (Sorry, fore knowledge and fixed 'historical' implementation dates is annoying me at teh moment with another game.)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Strategy

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2002, 09:12:38 PM »
I'd probably say classify those two as personal traits too.

Vindictiveness: there's a fine line to thread here, since letting an AI be controlled too much by a factor like this can make it quite bad.

Flexibility seems to me could be very much the same as a custom/tradition attribute.

Regarding the foreknowing of historical characters, I think this is one of those "can't have the pie and eat it too" situations (the same problem occurs in EU). In this case, however - you might want to wait for Hannibal, but this doesn't mean the rest of the Carthaginian Senate will agree to wait. Or that they will agree to go to war during Hannibal's lifetime. And anyway, you can always choose to play without historical leaders, if one finds this a problem - this will certainly be one of those "options" that I will implement. :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Philj

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2002, 03:46:50 AM »
How did you know that was the game to which I was referring.  [how should I play Austria - well wait around for Burgundian inheritance ...]

Anyway, I understand where you've come from for the xenophobia/tradionalist examples - however the range for these should be linked to teh implied self-interest of the faction.  A faction that has already established colonies and may be happily "exploiting the workers (er remaining indigenous inhabitants) and hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma that perpetuates ..." and be more inclined to be less confrontational than a newer one seeking opportunities to establish their own colonies.  (Mind you does the attempted gallic genocide coincide with the start of the game.) For the same reason, Carthaginian families are not likely to be as xenophobic as Roman.

Similarly an established family with a stake in teh status quo will be more likely to be traditional than a newer or smaller family with less to lose.  

This does not help you. ::)

With a more exogenous approach to goal setting, in Roman terms you could lift a philhellene attitude exhibited by some emperors (and earlier) in the development around Naples.  The Anthony vs Octavian conflict - or at least teh PR on it - being an example of Latin vs philhellene.  (Off teh top of my head, I can't think of anyone promoting gallic culture.)

Some Roman leaders may have a more commercial/trading bent - I'm not sure where historically the trading class came from in Rome?  were they from the established families with plenty of land/cash or from up and comers.

Could a leader be more innately expansionist?  So during a consulship, he would be promoting going after Corsica rather tahn consolidating oh the mountains behind Liguria (for what they're worth).

Could someone else join in - I'm sure Strategy would liek some considered input?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Catiline

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2002, 04:12:05 PM »
An obvious one to me would be some sort of activity rating, perhaps based on the number of favourable factors needed to be present in order to initiate an action on the part of a character a rating of 1 is highly likely to act rashly as he only needs 1 favourable factor to risk precipitating action, a character with 5 or 6 needs a lot more before he'll move.

eg

(For the sake of argument)

Caesar being active and rash will respond quickly and decisively to any perceived opening, but consequently is likely to become overstretched and get himself into bother, his invasion across the Rhine based on the fact that a confederation of tribes is indulging in internicine conflict is foiled by the fact these tribes then see him as a bigger threat. A character with a lesser action rating might wait for the conflict in the confederation to arise, and the establishment of friendly relations with some of the tribes across the Rhine, before risking action. Caesar might have success from seizing the only opportunity, another general may miss the window and fail to arrange alliances. Conversely Caesar gets himself into real hot water as the tribes unite against him, whereas the more considered approach whilst slower is successful.

Any number of factors could be put into effect, with weighting on their importance either overall or for different individuals - Senatorial consent for an action such as declaring war outside provincial borders, political opportunity, restless troops, greater numbers of troops - some commanders will be active with smaller forces, others will be very ponderous and defensive unless they have overwhelming superiority.

Rather inexpertly expressed but i hope you get the basic concept I'm trying to express.

« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Strategy

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2002, 05:50:46 PM »
Activity rating is already in there; called aggression.

Some of the basic character attributes:
Aggression, Ambition, Integrity, Greed, Charisma, and Guile.

What I'm particularly concerned with right now is the expression of a character's political leanings.

Philhellene vs latin - I'd consider it covered the heading of xenopobia/custom/tradition.

Commercialistic - I think this is more a case of whether the character goes for high risk investment (trading) or low risk (land).

Expansionism could probably be covered by xenophobia as well, but might be a good candidate for an attribute.


« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Nikanarchon

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2002, 09:36:40 AM »
Maybe 'Stubbornness'
Although maybe this comes under Aggression.
Maybe you could have 'average' characteristics for each race. So Romans are, on average, more ambitious, greedy and stubborn, Greeks more cunning and flexible, Karts more greedy and cunning etc etc etc.
Also, following the point of an earlier post on foreknowledge, how about knowledge of a character's stats only becoming apparent through his actions. On appearance you know nothing about him, gradually it becomes revealed that he is greedy, flexible, etc etc.
Also, maybe have the stats built around the degree of interest a character has in Wealth, Fame, Power, Influence etc.
Sorry if this is 'stream of consciousness' type response.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »
Strategos Nikanarchon, quite unQuirite

Strategy

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2002, 08:51:59 PM »
Maybe 'Stubbornness'

Have been thinking of adding Determination as a personal attribute.

Maybe you could have 'average' characteristics for each race.

The individual families have "average" statistics, so this is already supported.

On foreknowledge of a character's stats, there is not going to be any sliding scale. Some attributes (e.g., ambition, aggression) are visible, while others (loyalty, etc.) are not. Some may be hidden to other players, but still available to the "controlling" player.

Also, maybe have the stats built around the degree of interest a character has in Wealth, Fame, Power, Influence etc.

Yes - well this was actually part of my original question. But then the question becomes whether there is any significant difference between these aspects? Wealth brings influence and power, power can be used to get wealth, power and/or wealth brings fame. Given that there are - after all - limitations on how complex the gameplay gets, the question is whether there is enough of a case for distinguishing between these factors
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Philj

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2002, 02:55:20 AM »
On ethat just came to mind might be delusions of grandeur.  Or a desire to centralise State on himself.  Thinking here about how we distinguish Caesar from earlier ambitious leaders.

Perhaps he was no more ambitious, but teh game could treat it that Rome was becoming more likely to fall to a dictator (is wrong word but it will do).  Depends how deterministic you think the fall of the Republic was - what did happen to all the Marxist historians.  I suppose St Croix is still out there

If each Greek city state was modelled, this would seem to occur more often (or is it a case that our sample is bigger).  
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

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Re: Defining Characters
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2002, 08:01:03 PM »
Check the Imperium bibliography list, it contains the following book: "The Last Generation of the Roman Republic" by Erich S. Gruen.  ;) As rabid an advocate against the view of the "degenerating Roman Republic" as ever existed. While I don't accept all his claims, I think he makes some very cogent points.

There will be other aspects that increase the likelihood of "the fall"; namely the increased "proletarism" of the legions, as well as the application of various laws. The (potential) increase in the amount of poor people in Rome will also make radical legislation easier to put through.

Greek city states are modelled, just not as thoroughly as the Roman (and you can't play a Greek aristocratic leader - at least not in this version).

Apollonius of Tyre

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2002, 04:14:47 AM »
Perhaps a politico could be defined purely from the nature and strength of his or her political relationships.

When I was dreaming of building this game (and who hasn't dreamed of it) this was the political system I envisaged:

We can imagine a graph of nodes and arcs representing the political actors and the relationships between them. Note that this is quite separate from the institutions of government and represents the informal network of political affiliation.

Political actors are the nominated representatives of the powerful familes. Importantly, these actors recognise no nationality, only the interests of their families. So it is quite conceivable that a Roman senator might have very good relationships with political actors in Asia or Egypt or even Africa.

The arcs between these nodes are weighted. A positive score indicates goodwill and support, a negative score hostility and oppostion. These weightings change dynamically during play.

The way to change the weighting of a relationship is to do good (or harm) to the person concerned.
Patronage or the dispensing of favours to your circle of clients and friends was the fundemental stuff of politics, not just in Rome but everywhere. The ability to bestow favours is the index of a political actors power and influence. Because he can expect support in return, bestowing favours creates power.

To measure an actor's influence, reputation, auctoritas we can simply sum the weights of the actor's political relationships.

When an actor gives some benefit to another actor (loans, gifts, bequests, civic or religious office, military command, that sort of thing) the relationship weighting is improved accordingly.  Likewise, lawsuits, fraud, theft and other nasty (but potentially lucrative) actions will diminish the weighting, perhaps taking it into negative territory.

Now here's the funky part...
A proportion of the weight added for a deed gets passed on to all the recipients contacts. (We can decide this proportion in various ways, it doesn't matter too much)

What is important is that the value passed on takes the same sign as the weight of the relationship between the recipient and the recipient's other contact. So that doing a good deed for someone will make their friends like you more and their enemies hate you more.


Ok, an example.
Julius fixes up Tiberius with a provincial governorship. This improves the relationship between them by (say) 12. However, Tiberius has two other relationships. One with Mithradates [weighted 32] and one with Crassus [weighted -16]. If the proportion passed on is one tenth, then the relationship
Julius-Mithradates improves +1.2
Julius-Crassus deteriorates -1.2

=======================================

There are two reasons why this system might be worth looking at:

first, I believe the dynamics of the system would inherently lead to the formation of parties/factions/interest groups. How stable those groups are, I couldn't vouch for without trying it. But I think you could tweak it till you got the right level of instability.

second, we need to ascribe to political actors no further motive than educated self-interest. The nature of an actor's self-interested actions will be coloured by the need to please his friends and to acquire the wherewithal to do so.
In many cases this will involve the interests of the ruling families of foreign powers.
The beauty is that this makes it easier for the AI to play.

========================================

Anyway, those were my thoughts when I was dreaming.
:)
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Philj

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2002, 04:32:03 AM »
In addition, there should be some type of deterioration component - a sort of "what have you done for lately"

Also does favouring one 'client' mean that you have damaged your relationship with another client?  Does it raise the bar,  is it a linear relationship?  Digressing a lot but on the issue of interest rate rises, an argument that went around was that the more the central bank adjusted rates, thegreater any future change would need to be to have an equivalent effect on teh market.  

I'm not disagreeing just throwing ideas at the canvas.

Apollonius of Tyre

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2002, 04:40:32 AM »
Yeah, all important points.
Unfortunately, with a dynamic system like this, we could never be sure of its behaviour without actually trying it. And it would be very sensitive to changes in its algorithm (linear or non-linear, the weighting coefficients, even the number of nodes).

On the other hand, keeping political state like this enables some difficult decisions to be made quite easily...

In a civil (or any other war) who supports who and by how much?

How many (and which) senators do you have to bribe to keep the Romans out of the kingdom you just inherited?

Will the senate vote war with Carthage if Hanno has made a lot of good friends in Rome?
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Gwydion

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2002, 10:11:50 AM »
I do like the concepts behind Apollonius' proposals. It would be much too cumbersome to manage in a board game, but I believe it is doable (and worth doing) in a computer game.

Apollonius hit the nail on the head with this crucial importance of clientelism and direct relations, no matter the nationality. This would allow to modelise the less-than-optimal strategy seemingly pursued by some states (whether "republican" or autocratic).

However, one should not forget some internal constraints, which would tend to counteract (more or less efficiently) the clientelism: pressure from the common people and lesser factions (to get more lands, more favours, less wars, avenge a slight, ...), national ethos ("Sure, Ptolemy is my friend/client, but we can't let this decadent Greek expel Roman merchants from Egypt!").

Speaking of merchants, one should not neglect the deliberately mercantilist imperialist strategy pursued not only by Carthage, but by Rome (see making Delos a "free port" with huge advantages to Roman negotiatores, and, incidentally, ruining the trade of Rhodes, a Roman Ally but who came foul of the Senate). Wealthy and powerful merchants were a key element among clients, and made sure their interests were taken care of...

Strategy

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2002, 11:25:43 PM »
My head hurts.  :o Keep in mind that I have an AI to code here, so there are limits to how complex a system I can afford to build (+ I have to be able to understand it myself  ;)).

One problem I can see is maintaining feedback to the player; its no fun making a decision if you can't see its effects. But I am thinking of something simmilar in the diplomatic sphere; and it would certainly be neat to somehow model the informal cross-national relationships. Keep the ideas coming.

Apollonius of Tyre

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2002, 05:39:40 AM »
*laughs*

OK then, something more sensible...

Couldn't we just scavange a standard commercial personality test? All we need is their interpretive typology anyway rather than the test itself.

We aren't toooo concerned are we about the accuracy of such a test, just that it adequately differentiates character.

And here's a thought:
if that's all we need, then why don't we go completey antique and use the character's horoscope?
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Gwydion

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2002, 10:58:25 AM »
 ??? Apollonius, you just lost me there!

What's this about personality tests and horoscopes (not specifically antique, by the way)???

I believe the basic idea should simply be to keep score of current quality levels of relationships with other factions/families (probably just like diplomatic relations between states), and offer a panel of actions a character could choose affecting those (some others would be implicit).

The Player Manual should give a rough description of the way these personal relations work, and mention they are affected by a wealth of events (personal, national, international, ...), and then let the player figure out by himself that when he favours someone, this someone's enemies probably will look askance at himself... If the model is sound, it should be pretty much intuitive. Then you can build an elaborate model below the eye.

So, feedback should be simple (such as displaying general levels "likes you", "is devoted", "is suspicious"...). No need to tell the player "if you do grant commercial benefits to Stasandros of Rhodes, your mate Ptolemy will be pleased, but his son will not because he can't stand Stasandros, and the Seleucids will be angered, and this faction of the Roman Senate will appreciate, but this one, very mercantilist, will not, and...." Let him figure this out.

Valley

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2002, 01:07:06 AM »
Hello folks! :D

Have something to add about the 'weight' system.  In one of my older sci-fi games there is a system in which many alien races interact based on a 'weight' system.  If you go to war with another race or steal from them or demand tribute, so on, points are taken away.  In other words they dislike, then down right hate you.  >:( They may break off relations or even declare war on you.  Do good things for them and they might offer you a great trading deal or ally themselves with you.  ;D If you are careful you can make a friend out of an enemy OR make two enemies go to war against each other! ;)
But what happens if for years you do nothing good Or bad for them?  The 'weight' slowly starts to swing towards a neutral position (or zero).  This is great if they dislike you but bad if they happened to be allies.

The game starts with some races already liking or disliking each other (by setting the 'weights' off center).


Not sure if that helps...:)


Demonic_Emperor

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2002, 07:31:47 AM »
Good idea Valley, but I'm not sure it's wise to always have the weight swing toward neutral over time. The different characters should have different expectations of treatment based on their official position and personality, simply ignoring someone may enrage them.

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Re:Defining Characters
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2002, 12:31:05 PM »
There will most likely be some sort of "weights" system or "web of relationships" in existence between the various characters, though exactly how much impact this will have on the game itself I have not yet decided. There are limits to how much information is useful in the game, and if something doesn't contribute to the gameplay experience, then obviously it is not really useful to spend a lot of hours coding it.

Thanks for all your comments and keep them coming. Even if I don't respond, I do read everything written here and take them into consideration while working on the game.