Topic: Quesion

[Markus Aurelius]

Great game concept/development so far!

Question though.

1.) Will the game battles have some moderate level of graphics, such as "Legion"? I'm not huge on eye candy, but it seriously helps the emersion, when you see a couple hundred guys crash together in true Ancient style!

2.) Will we be able to make battle plans. EI. set up a army x number deep, square formation with 2 triangle wings etc. etc. I'd love to be able to have pre-set plans designed for specific battle terrains etc.  Basically I want to be able to play the "tactision"

cheers

[MicaByte]

1) The battle graphics should (if everything is completed as planned) be somewhat better than Legion. The plan is to have the terrain be in a "real" 3D view (like Shogun:Total War), rather than using isometric 3D effects. I plan to put up some screenshots from the current build of the 3D engine, but currently I'm working on a laptop which does not support 3D, and this has sort of delayed this...

2) Yes.

[Markus Aurelius]

great to hear.

Now finish the darn game!  

[Xanadu]

Please tell me you will be able to flank with the cavalry.
Legion doesn't have this, and that really takes away a lot of atmosphere to the game.

[MicaByte]

Cavalry can be used for flanking maneouvres - if you can control them. Infantry can be used as well - they're just not very good at it.

[Markus Aurelius]

I guess one more question....Will the battles be set up like Legion for instance where it will basically unfold in front of you after you order your troops?

As far as I understand Ancient Warfare didn't allow for many "manouvers" once combat had begun.....However any good comander would be felxible in his tactics and allow for the unexpected. wheather it be re-enforcing a falling line, or falling back some.

I also don't think the Shogun style of combat works either, as a comlicated battle is not possible trying to fratically click on groups of troops to command them.

I also hope that a battle can be won based on a withdrawing enemy. Loosing one battle to live and fight another day may not win you the battle, but it may win you the war. Ie. tactical withdrawl...

Sorry just rambling thoguhts..

[MicaByte]

Check into the main web pages under the game descriptions of Imperium. Most of what you want to know about is in there (got to finish this site update soon).

[Philj]

Please tell me you will be able to flank with the cavalry.
Legion doesn't have this, and that really takes away a lot of atmosphere to the game

Where do you sit with the (now dated discussion elsewhere) on flanking and dare I say it, "wheeling".  

I wonder if teh flank attack is overrated in its effectiveness at this level of abstraction.  Even at Cannae, my recollection (of the descriptions before someone asks my age) is that the killing after the flanks closed seemed to be a hard slog and less of a sudden collapse.  The effect of simulating a successful flank attack in a campaign model is more important than in a battle model.  

Sorry I took so long to contribute but just back from two weeks holiday in Western Australia where ... oh you don't want to hear.

[MicaByte]

Hope you had a nice trip.

Flanking at Cannae:
Hmm - but at Cannae, the Romans lost 20,000-50,000 to 4,000-8,000. How can such one-sided killing be possible? The only way it would seem to make sense, is if the Romans had a complete morale collapse after becoming surrounded. Sabin has a very nice graphic description of what it might have been like in one of his pages.

So I think the evidence remains strong that outflanking was one of the best ways to get an army to give up the fight. It is so in Imperium, in that outflanked units have significantly worsened morale. Achieving an outflank, however, is not quite so simple. Cavalry are good at it. Infantry are pretty bad at it.

Wheeling is a very thorny issue - primarily, because it is extremely hard to model it in the game. I actually haven't reached a final decision on this yet.

Essentially, the basic moves of infantry (and cavalry) are to march straight ahead, march in inclination (i.e., forward and to the right or left), and the "about-turn" (probably will be done graphically with some sort of a counter-march). You will thus see very quickly that it is relatively easy for a unit to pursue its opponent and (if able to stop the pursuit), about turn to take enemy units in the rear.

Wheeling, on the other hand, is a thorny issue. Imagine the problems of turning a 2000 man long line. The current solution I'm playing with, works on the following premise.

From line formation:
1. The units form a "column" formation.
2. The units face about to the right or left.

This is obviously a rather slow and laborous process - stretching over 2, possibly more turns for infantry. Cavalry will be much faster at it than infantry, thus allowing them to be able to outflank relatively effectively. Drilled infantry will also be much more effective at this than non-drilled infantry. One way of working an outflank would be (like Hannibal) to deploy one's troops on the flanks in column formation, thereby ensuring that it would be a simple matter (1 turn) of facing to the right or left. Whether I'll be able to get the AI to use such a tactic is another issue entirely - for that matter, I'm not sure I should get it to do so.

One of the main issues I'm considering right now, is e.g., whether to permit "barbarian" units to make quick wheels in some simpler manner, at the cost of disorganisation. But then again, where is the evidence for that sort of thing happening?

But this will probably be one of those things that the open test will look to decide.

[Philj]

Thank you - time to put the t-shirts away for another 6-8 months until it gets warm again here.

I've no problem with a flank attack slaughering great numbers of Romans -   - my concern is more with the time it took.  How quick they die, with reinforcements arriving or if they get away because night intervenes and so be used later on (the non-decimated ones).  

If a flank attack leads to too rapid a collapse, while the usual frontal assault slowly grinds away, the main game will switch to flanks which might seem odd in a game centred on Rome's rise.

I like your thoughts on wheeling as it increases the danger of swinging a line around willy-nilly.  

Which 'barbarians' did you have in mind? - leaving a loaded question lying on the table.

[MicaByte]

Most of your questions are related to game tuning issues; I'm relying on you guys to give me feedback on these things.

Actual slaughtering of a unit should take lots and lots of time. Not an easy thing to do that. So something like Cannae might stretch on for several "hours" in game terms.

I don't see the problem with a flank attack leading to a rapid collapse. After all - it often did. However, achieving a flank attack is not going to be too easy - at least not if the player (or AI) has taken care to guard his flanks properly (this is helped due to the deployment constraints that will be implemented).

With barbarians, I am thinking mostly of a Celtic (or simmilar) army. I'm finding it quite hard to envisage a Celtic army..."All right guys, form column! Now wheel left! Right! Charge!!!"   I can better imagine something like: "Hey everyone - they're to the left!!!" and complete chaos resulting.

[Apollonius of Tyre]

Hi all, my first post here...

Wheeling an entire battle-line would seem to be impossible.  I can't (off the top of my head) think of a single instance where this was attempted.

The usual method of deployment of a Roman army during the Punic wars was to march the army out of camp in three parallel columns, with the right-flank units leading the march.

The parallel columns from the left are: the front rank troops (hastati and other), second rank troops (principes),  rear rank troops (triarii and others).

These three columns would then march together to the point designated to be the left flank of the battle-line  (probably marked by a junior officer and his entourage), then turn in series to march down the length of the intended battle line to the right flank point. All that was needed then was a smart left turn and everyone was in postion.

During this time of extraordinary vulnerability the army would be screened by skirmishing velites and whatever cavalry the army had available.

As you can imagine, this could take *at least* an hour. In theory, faster deployment schemes are possible but they were disregarded as being to complex and error prone. Simple is best, even with relatively trained troops.

The idea of a line of 20,000 men wheeling on a flank point more than a mile away without bunching up or breaking the line doesn't bear thinking about.

Perhaps there is a thought worth keeping here: If it is too difficult to program, it was probably do difficult to acheive in real life with more than a few thousand men.

[MicaByte]

Perhaps there is a thought worth keeping here: If it is too difficult to program, it was probably do difficult to acheive in real life with more than a few thousand men.

Damn - I wish I could apply that principle to everything in this game.  

[Philj]

Related to Apollonius' deployment description (BTW like your icon), commanders will thin their line to make sure they match up with opponents (or deploy where natural features limit the breadth of the deploymemt area).  Can this be simulated with the formations you are developing.  

You've described Trebbia elsewhere as probably being handled as an ambush (I think), but were it a battle could thin Carthaginian lines be simulated (taking my lead from a vaguely concurrent discussion on ancmed)?

[MicaByte]

I think it was Trasimene, not Trebbia, that I said would be handled by an ambush.

Yes - deployment in thinner lines will be possible in the game system. Just adjust the number of units in each "square".

[flavius]

Hi all, my first post here...

Wheeling an entire battle-line would seem to be impossible.  I can't (off the top of my head) think of a single instance where this was attempted.

The usual method of deployment of a Roman army during the Punic wars was to march the army out of camp in three parallel columns, with the right-flank units leading the march.

The parallel columns from the left are: the front rank troops (hastati and other), second rank troops (principes),  rear rank troops (triarii and others).

These three columns would then march together to the point designated to be the left flank of the battle-line  (probably marked by a junior officer and his entourage), then turn in series to march down the length of the intended battle line to the right flank point. All that was needed then was a smart left turn and everyone was in postion.

During this time of extraordinary vulnerability the army would be screened by skirmishing velites and whatever cavalry the army had available.

As you can imagine, this could take *at least* an hour. In theory, faster deployment schemes are possible but they were disregarded as being to complex and error prone. Simple is best, even with relatively trained troops.

The idea of a line of 20,000 men wheeling on a flank point more than a mile away without bunching up or breaking the line doesn't bear thinking about.

Perhaps there is a thought worth keeping here: If it is too difficult to program, it was probably do difficult to acheive in real life with more than a few thousand men.

Hi friends,

this is my first post on this forum, althought I already had some discussino with Strategy on another forum.  

Altough I mostly agree with you, I would like to make some comments about what you said.

1) Concerning the wheeling of an entire battle line, I have a striking example: Zama !!

While the hastati were fitghing hard the carthaginians, the principes made a quite complicated manoeuvre: They split in two lines, then the right one made a turn right to form a column, and the left one did the same on the left. Then, both lines walked until the end of the column jion the flanks of the first line. Then, they made another left turn and right turn so as to form a line and they found themselves in continuation of the first line. Thus, they achieve to flank the carthaginians. ( I hope you can understand me, as my english needs some improvements... )

2) It may be difficult to program this, but if you look at some battles, you'll see that such a complicated manoeuver brought victory. Look at Pydna: cohorts have been ordered to stop the advance, turn left, march and then turn left again to attack the macedonian phalange at rear!!

Flavius