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May 20, 2012, 01:52:09 PM
 

Author Topic: Looking good  (Read 11906 times)

Pijus_Magnificus

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Looking good
« on: April 22, 2002, 04:03:28 AM »
Hi there,
This game looks truly magnificus. I've been looking for a historical strategic/operational/tactic game to play over the internet for a long time.
I have a question: Is there any reason why the players are limited to 9?. It seems to me it would be very interesting if the minor powers are allowed to be played by humans.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »
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Xanadu

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2002, 11:58:00 AM »
Keep it up Strategy!
Can't wait to see this baby mature.
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2002, 06:22:38 PM »
The multi-player is "limited" to 9, because this currently seems to be the optimal number of players in the grand strategy setting. If the number of players can be increased without problems, we'll do so.

I think that playing a minor nation in the full game might be rather boring, though.

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2002, 07:19:55 PM »
It's just because I think the potential of this game resides in a truly multiplayer option. Maybe theree’s a way of making minor nations more interesting to play, perhaps making them cheaper to play if you are thinking of charging afee. Just my two-penny worth
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Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2002, 12:19:01 AM »
Looking very promising indeed!


Strategy, good thing you are writing to the Pax R. forum, so I could found this site!  :)
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MicaByte

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Minor Nations
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2002, 12:45:48 PM »
Well, maybe if I spent less time discussing historia elsewhere and more working on the game, it would soon be finished... or then again, maybe not (its usually work hours I spend on MBs anyway).

Regarding minor nations.

The main difference between these and the major nations is that the minor nations will not have as many characters available (which means less capability for "multi-tasking, since # of actions = # of characters), and that they will generally not have a political "back-end" available for playing. This is something I'd like to add at some point (how about Celtic tribal politics ;D), but very certainly won't make it in the first version of the game.

Then of course, small nations do (or should) have a very high possibility of getting steamrollered in this game as -unlike most strategy games - conquest does not add significantly to your manpower ressources. Who would like to volunteer to play Massilia, for instance?

That being said, there will certainly be some "minor" nations that will be very playable. Prime candidates would be the minor states in Asia Minor (Bithynia, Pontus, Pergamon), as well as some of Germannic or Gallic tribes.

Keep in mind that this is not primarily an internet-based game, though, even if it should hopefully be well-suited for this.

Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2002, 01:53:03 PM »
Ok guys, it seems we must press forum moderators to ban Strategy from their forums, so we can have the game earlier   ;D Every day counts  ;D

It's great you plan to later do add-ons for the game. First I considered Imperium and Pax Romana to be big competitors when they'll be released, but now as I see it won't happen, as Imperium have wider focus, with a little less emphasis on historical accuracy, which can result in more replayability. (which is no way a bad thing. Look at EU for example).

I will surely buy both. Imagine, some hard-line historical games with Pax, and cool, exciting what-if empire building with Imperium. :)

In some time, I will post some creative, constructive post about the game surely, I am now just excited  ;D
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2002, 07:47:22 PM »
Constructive criticism is always welcome, and is the main reason why this site is maintained.

I wouldn't consider Pax Romana to be more historical than Imperium; PaxR will allow the player to micromanage stuff (e.g., trade) where Imperium is a more macro-manage type of game. Thus the levels of abstraction differ quite a lot. This is because where the focus of PaxR is (at least as far as I gather) really the short 30-40 year scenario/campaign, Imperium is geared towards the 250 years scenario length.

But history is still in the hotseat; though (quite naturally) it must occasionally bend in the interest of gameplay. My focus has always been to remain faithful to history, without necesarily duplicating it.

I think the main difference (other than turn-based vs real-time, and the level of abstraction) is that Imperium is much less Romano-centric. So you can really have fun trying to keep e.g., Ptolemy Auletes ("The Fluteplayer") and Ptolemy Physcon ("The Fatso") on the throne of Egypt.  ;D

Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2002, 10:05:22 PM »
Turn based gameplay is a very good feature for me, as my Internet speed won't allow me  9 players games in real time.
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Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2002, 07:49:35 PM »
I do agree too that turn-based gameplay is more strategically interesting
A couple of questions: That PaxR thingy sounds interesting. Can anyone send me a link to have a look? ::)
And how do you get those cute images on your signature?
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2002, 09:01:05 PM »
Shouldn't advertise for a competitor, but here's the link anyway.

You should be able to get smileys into your signature simply by typing in the appropriate codes  :)  :D  etc.

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2002, 09:48:03 PM »
Thanks, I’m only going to give it a quick look.
;DI meant the faces under your name (Roman, celtic, etc.)
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2002, 10:44:22 PM »
Really shouldn't advertise for a competitor, but PaxR is certainly worth more than just a look. We can only hope that it plays as good as it looks.

To set personalized pictures and personalized text, just click on the Profile link on the top of the pages. You've got 26 avatars to pick from the old game Centurion (or you can use your own, if you want).
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Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2002, 11:02:21 PM »
I've just had a look and, to be honest, it doesn't impress me much. Politics, diplomacy, graphics, all that is very well but  I miss a realistic tactical combat system as well, as I understand Imperium will have. Maybe I haven't looked in the right places
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charlesf

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2002, 06:59:21 PM »
Everybody looks for different things in a game. Personally, I am far less keen on  tactical aspects - at least in the manner I've seen them done in computergames (having a very limited experience in this area, I must admit).

Pax and Imperium are quite different, but in comparison with Slitherine's Legion (which is far less to my liking) are very close relations.

I think both the faction approach championed by Pax and the more grand strategic perspective of Imperium are highly interesting. I am anxious to see both games and hope Imperium sees the light of the world in not too far a future. Which will be first: First Round of EU Enlargement or Imperium?
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Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2002, 12:23:19 AM »
I'm afraid I haven't played much computers games although I know most of them, I'm from the old board- wargame school, hence my emphasis on tactical combat.
I just think that there are too many games with an strategic approach and a very abstract combat system, which is a pity. If you have both, you not only have to be good at diplomacy/trade/keeping order in your country, but also at training, looking after, and conducting the troops on the ground. That is a bit of a bigger challenge, and the player who can manage both is truly a genious.
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Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2002, 12:42:17 AM »
The problem which could arise from a game having a detailed economical, political, and also a tactical military aspect together (beside it takes a huge effort from the creators to unite these things into a really good game)  is that it isn't quite sure a game needs all of these, to be good.

Like in EUII, if I would have to take care of every single battle of the tactical level, I would be angry, as I am interested to care about the "big picture" and not the positioning of my tactical units on the battlefield.

And turning on/off the tactical feature is not a real solution for this kind of games, as the AI tends to be inferior in quick-generated battles (Shogun comes to my mind, altough tact. battles where the main focus there, so it isn't the perfect example).

I think a grand strategical game doesn't need a very detailed battle system.
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Philj

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2002, 05:36:57 AM »
Hello PM & T

IMHO at the Grand Strategic level, the player's role is mainly about resource management and direction.  One of the most important resources is people (in this case generals).  In an ideal world, you could pick to be someone and put yourself in the field as that person.  Not sure how a respawn would work in this case when you inevitably die and are transported to wherever your successor is.

It's incredibly god-like (pick your favourite diety) to be Consul and Centurian at the same time.  Not that I wouldn't play battlefield commander as Stategy has essentially developed (past tense hopefully) but incorporating a detailed tactical simulation stretches the computers resources without increasing the complexity of what should be the decision-making of the role of the player.  

I have no experience of the game but didn't Napoleon 1813 fall over trying to do too much.  I'm not saying it can't be done, but where do we (and Strategy  :)) want the computer's focus to be - -on richer grand strategic decision-making with a grand tactical insight into combat or a less powerful strategic engine but with a stronger tactical one.
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charlesf

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2002, 09:05:10 PM »
Strategy is very ambitious in attempting to combine grand tactics and grand strategy. I hope it will work. In any case, the grand strategic and especially the political aspects are of greatest interest to me.

I feel grand strategy has been much neglected by the industry. There are tons of tactical games on the other hand. Nobody has done a grand strategic treatment of antiquity since Centurion - Defender of Rome, I wagger. I am also a boardgamer, but that doesn't say you're a tactical or strategic enthusiast. It's a matter of taste.
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2002, 09:27:17 PM »
Personally, I love tactical games, but hate the "artificiality" of scenarios (e.g., on the last turn you launch a do or die attack, because losses don't matter). I've always felt that it should damn well be possible to have a game that properly spans the gap between strategy and tactics. Especially in the ancient era, this is what war ultimately tended to boil down to - all the fancy maneuvers in the world are worthless if they can not be translated into battlefield success (as Darius found out).

Obviously, there is no need for a game to combine tactical and strategic aspects to be good, but IMO any game set in the pre-1820s era cries out for such an aspect since essentially, strategy and tactics blended together, and the monarchs and princes who ruled the nations were very often the same who fought on the fields of battle.

In Imperium you don't play Consul and Centurion at the same time, you always play Consul (or Consuls) no matter where you are - in the forum, on the strategical map, or on the battlefield. At least if I do the job right.

The problem, of course, is that there is always a risk of creating two mediocre games, rather than one good one. Who knows, that may be how people will view Imperium - though I certainly hope not.

Another problem with strat/tact mix is that you really need a good AI in both parts, or you'll have the entire game being broken. In particular, the tactical AI must be able to challenge the player properly - and that is extremely hard for a computer. This either demands extreme ressources (like for Shogun:TW - and even here the AI is not really all that good) or you have to make the tactical game simple/abstract (like in Conquest of the New World - which has one of the best tactical sub-games I've played; extremely simply, yet also very fun, IMO).

The latter approach is the one taken in Imperium. The balance is, of course, that simplifying it too much can make battles uninteresting. So this is a difficult balancing act.

Actually, I though Napoleon 1813 (which I bought second-hand) was a brilliant game. Or rather - a brilliant concept. Where the whole thing fell to pieces was with a ridiculously inept AI (I recall one game where I marched right on Berlin and ended the war in 6 weeks or so), a bad interface, and a hopeless tactical game (units moved around more or less at random -  sometimes they didn't move at all, combat results were inexplicable - even with the manual, and oh - did I mention a truly lousy AI?). But so much potential.  :'(

Anyway, to get back to Imperium. Where I want you, in Imperium, is to try and immerse you into the thoughts and mindset (or at least what I believe to be the thoughts and mindsets) of a Roman Consul, Carthaginian Patrician, or Hellenistic King. In other words, when you declare war in the game, you do so for much the same reasons as they would have done. When you sue for peace, you do so because you know not to do so would be ruinous (unless you're Roman, in which case you stiffen your upper lip and mutter something about the Phyrros and Claudius). Essentially, I'd like to give the kind of people who roleplay and write long AARs in EU the chance to roleplay and enjoy a strategic game in Ancient Rome, without constantly having to rein themselves in from perfectly sensible (in a gaming sense), but utterly unhistoric behavior.
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Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2002, 12:13:57 AM »
I'm not saying that the Grand Startegy aspect has to be forsaken. I've always understood that this game would have two different aspects, and one of them would be tactics, or if you want grand tactics.
I have nothing to say about the Grand Strategy issue, I think is great, but it would be a shame if after all your carefully designed strategy your plans are wasted in one or a number of AI v AI battles. I'd like to be able to influence the result of a battle at least a little bit.
I think there's room on this game for an agressive player who conduct his/her policy through war, and s/he should be able to have the same degree of control as a player more politics-orientated.
I think...
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Philj

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Where I want you, in Imperium, is Re: Looking good
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2002, 05:15:48 AM »
I don't think we're too far apart - I 'm probably a bit anal with my use of terms (far too much proof reading and reviewing in my early working life).

Strangely I've never seen 1813 in the bargain bins in Melbourne (for less than A$60 anyway - maybe that is equivalent to the US$5 I read somewhere).  I also thought it was a good concept but did it fail from flying too close to the sun or from poor execution.  If teh former, that is what I fear for Imperium.  

Quote
Where I want you, in Imperium, is to try and immerse you into the thoughts and mindset (or at least what I believe to be the thoughts and mindsets) of a Roman Consul, Carthaginian Patrician, or Hellenistic King. In other words, when you declare war in the game, you do so for much the same reasons as they would have done. When you sue for peace, you do so because you know not to do so would be ruinous (unless you're Roman, in which case you stiffen your upper lip and mutter something about the Phyrros and Claudius). Essentially, I'd like to give the kind of people who roleplay and write long AARs in EU the chance to roleplay and enjoy a strategic game in Ancient Rome, without constantly having to rein themselves in from perfectly sensible (in a gaming sense), but utterly unhistoric behavior.


If you nail this, a plausible battle resolution module will be a bonus.  I too don't like relying on the AI for battle resolution.  I have another PC game, Hannibal, in which your main input into the battle is how fast you click the button to disengage before you are wiped out - a downside to more powerful faster machines.  Mind you under Sun Tsu's Art of War, I found it often a benefit to allow the AI to handle some of the worse match-ups.
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Demonic_Emperor

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2002, 09:50:25 AM »
Quote
Anyway, to get back to Imperium. Where I want you, in Imperium, is to try and immerse you into the thoughts and mindset (or at least what I believe to be the thoughts and mindsets) of a Roman Consul, Carthaginian Patrician, or Hellenistic King. In other words, when you declare war in the game, you do so for much the same reasons as they would have done. When you sue for peace, you do so because you know not to do so would be ruinous (unless you're Roman, in which case you stiffen your upper lip and mutter something about the Phyrros and Claudius). Essentially, I'd like to give the kind of people who roleplay and write long AARs in EU the chance to roleplay and enjoy a strategic game in Ancient Rome, without constantly having to rein themselves in from perfectly sensible (in a gaming sense), but utterly unhistoric behavior.

A noble goal, but one I imagine will be very difficult to achieve.

In EU, while I've not written any AARs, I always try to play historically, making decisions that I think the rulers at the time could have made, never really trying to conquer the world.

I have played many strategy and war games in my life, yet not once have I played one at a grand strategic level that prevents "snowballing" in a realistic and elegant way. Whether the game claims to be historical or not, if an aggressive player wants to conquer the world, the world will be conquered. ::)

About declaring war and making peace, it's hard for me to envision a scenario where the player declares war for a reason other than the acquisition of territory and wealth, and where the victorious player does not aim in peace negotiations to take as much from the defeated power as possible.

As you've said on earlier occasions, manpower (or at least *quality* manpower) will be severely restricted in Imperium, as well as disloyal provinces being a burden beyond a certain % revolt risk. I think those are some very good ideas which isn't really modeled well in any other game.

I really hope you get things right, and everything turns out to have the desired effect. It seems like Imperium will turn out to be a very unique game. :)
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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2002, 08:49:12 PM »
Well, it is probably impossible not to make situations where there is an advantage to either letting the AI control the battle or doing it oneself, but it's one thing that needs to be minimized. Balancing, balancing...

Regarding snowball-conquests, I really think very few games actually make any attempt to actually prevent this; EU is rather unique in that respect. And as such, I'm not against allowing world conquest - its the holding together of the conquest through subsequent generation that I think should be difficult (as it was in reality).

Declaring wars - most wars are declared for material gain, so this is fine by me.

Sueing for peace - lots of issues to be taken into consideration here; especially how to keep wars from dragging out into the unending.

A key thing here is going to be implementing the concept of loyalties, and the sieges of cities. More cities fell in this time period (in EU time period as well, I believe) due to treachery than from actual siege operations. Since sieges are going to be really ruinous, being able to convince cities to surrender will be quite vital. An idea is to implement something like the following: If you behave in an abnormal manner - e.g., such as fighting to destroy a Kingdom even after they have offered good peace terms (often, you'll have the chance to vassalize), then latter cities will tend to be less and less willing to change sides (seeing that you're generally behaving in an irrational and unreasonable way).

This could be one of the ways the game engine might try to slow down potential "conquor the world types" like myself. :D The important thing for me however, is that it makes sense in the context of the historical period and the game (which I think something like the above would). Anything that lowers the "immersion" in the game (such as arbitrary limits on what you can annex) is a bad thing, IMO.

Markus Aurelius

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2002, 07:37:07 AM »
I might as well throw my opinion in here as well.

The thing I look for in a game is tactical battles. Simple. Shogun is great, but the AI isn't great and the battles themselves are hard to manage once they get more complicated and large.

Historical accuracy for me is important too. I'd like to be able to tell the difference between the period in roman times. Be it the type of armor the calvery/infantry had, or the type of tatics/battle formations available.  And quite frankly i'd like to be able to lay seige to a great city and use the Roman engineering marvels to take it down.(ramparts, towers, etc.)

And dammit if there are 50000 men in the battle field I want to see a HECK of alot of realistic sprites. None of this 1 unit equals 100 guys stuff. :-D

But hey thats just me :-)

MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2002, 01:19:19 PM »
Then I hope Imperium doesn't dissappoint you too much.  ;)

Scale is (hopefully) going to be 1:50; with the limit for armies set at 100,000 men for each army. I fear we shall be unable to do much better than that, on our (lack of) budget.

Not all that much difference in the armies over the period of this game; the primary difference will probably be the Roman conversion from maniples to cohorts. Otherwise most armies will remain unchanged throughout (right, there are a few changes in the east with introduction of Cataphracts and such, but not much).

You may well be a bit dissappointed with the siege ability of the Romans; it will be only late in the game that they will be really good at the technical sides of the siege, and even then, they'll probably not be any great shakes at the technical aspects (remember that what Caesar primarily besieged were basically small hamlets - the few times he faced a real challenge: Alesia, Massilia -he usually ended up starving them out). Roman strength in this case will be their logistics; for the real great sieges, you need to get hold of some of the Greek states and their great siege engineers. Hmm - maybe I should add Archimedes as a historical character in the game... 8)

Philj

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2002, 04:42:47 AM »
Screw Archimedes  :-[ (Sorry - hope I've got my bad jokes out of teh way for the week)

Anyway, with a turn based system, I assume most elements will be modular.  It may be easier to refine or add on a more complex tactical system when the top level is stable.  As long as there is sufficient detail to interchange between teh two levels.

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MicaByte

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2002, 02:16:17 PM »
Quote
Anyway, with a turn based system, I assume most elements will be modular.  It may be easier to refine or add on a more complex tactical system when the top level is stable.  As long as there is sufficient detail to interchange between teh two levels.


Yes.
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Apollonius of Tyre

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Re:Looking good
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2002, 02:15:16 AM »
Hi all,

A question.
Surely not every combat can be depicted in the tactical subgame.

For two reasons, the countless skirmishes, massacres and acts of brigandage that make up warfare in the ancient med will need to be handled in an abstract fashion:

first, it would be impossible to program every random act of violence;
second, the game would become unplayable.

So the question is, what is the threshold at which a combat gets depicted in the tactical subgame?

If the threshold is quite high, say at the level of a consular army, then the tactical subgame can be quite detailed because a player will rarely fight more than one major action per year.

On the other hand, if the threshold is low enough to account for the taking of each and every city, then we have to account for quite small forces and many actions and sieges (I'm thinking of Hannibal's operations in Southern Italy).
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MicaByte

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Re:Looking good
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2002, 11:06:24 PM »
Threshold for a battle is about the 15,000 man per side level.

The problem with an incredibly refined tactical model is that of AI. Since I can't throw larger and larger armies at the player (e.g., as in the Total War games and just about every other game with tactical combat), the game system must be simple enough that the AI can win regularly with equal forces.

Apollonius of Tyre

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Re:Looking good
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2002, 11:29:39 PM »
*grins*
I haven't yet met an AI that can match a human so that will be a major breakthrough.

Loved the links from this site btw. Spent most of yesterday perusing them instead of working.

:)
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Re:Looking good
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2002, 11:33:26 PM »
Make the game simple enough (or fast enough), and it will trash you. The challenge (major challenge  :() of course, is keeping it interesting as well.