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February 07, 2012, 07:02:19 AM
 

Author Topic: Looking good  (Read 11718 times)

Pijus_Magnificus

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Looking good
« on: April 22, 2002, 04:03:28 AM »
Hi there,
This game looks truly magnificus. I've been looking for a historical strategic/operational/tactic game to play over the internet for a long time.
I have a question: Is there any reason why the players are limited to 9?. It seems to me it would be very interesting if the minor powers are allowed to be played by humans.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »
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Xanadu

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2002, 11:58:00 AM »
Keep it up Strategy!
Can't wait to see this baby mature.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »
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Strategy

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2002, 06:22:38 PM »
The multi-player is "limited" to 9, because this currently seems to be the optimal number of players in the grand strategy setting. If the number of players can be increased without problems, we'll do so.

I think that playing a minor nation in the full game might be rather boring, though.

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2002, 07:19:55 PM »
It's just because I think the potential of this game resides in a truly multiplayer option. Maybe theree’s a way of making minor nations more interesting to play, perhaps making them cheaper to play if you are thinking of charging afee. Just my two-penny worth
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Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2002, 12:19:01 AM »
Looking very promising indeed!


Strategy, good thing you are writing to the Pax R. forum, so I could found this site!  :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Strategy

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Minor Nations
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2002, 12:45:48 PM »
Well, maybe if I spent less time discussing historia elsewhere and more working on the game, it would soon be finished... or then again, maybe not (its usually work hours I spend on MBs anyway).

Regarding minor nations.

The main difference between these and the major nations is that the minor nations will not have as many characters available (which means less capability for "multi-tasking, since # of actions = # of characters), and that they will generally not have a political "back-end" available for playing. This is something I'd like to add at some point (how about Celtic tribal politics ;D), but very certainly won't make it in the first version of the game.

Then of course, small nations do (or should) have a very high possibility of getting steamrollered in this game as -unlike most strategy games - conquest does not add significantly to your manpower ressources. Who would like to volunteer to play Massilia, for instance?

That being said, there will certainly be some "minor" nations that will be very playable. Prime candidates would be the minor states in Asia Minor (Bithynia, Pontus, Pergamon), as well as some of Germannic or Gallic tribes.

Keep in mind that this is not primarily an internet-based game, though, even if it should hopefully be well-suited for this.

Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2002, 01:53:03 PM »
Ok guys, it seems we must press forum moderators to ban Strategy from their forums, so we can have the game earlier   ;D Every day counts  ;D

It's great you plan to later do add-ons for the game. First I considered Imperium and Pax Romana to be big competitors when they'll be released, but now as I see it won't happen, as Imperium have wider focus, with a little less emphasis on historical accuracy, which can result in more replayability. (which is no way a bad thing. Look at EU for example).

I will surely buy both. Imagine, some hard-line historical games with Pax, and cool, exciting what-if empire building with Imperium. :)

In some time, I will post some creative, constructive post about the game surely, I am now just excited  ;D
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2002, 07:47:22 PM »
Constructive criticism is always welcome, and is the main reason why this site is maintained.

I wouldn't consider Pax Romana to be more historical than Imperium; PaxR will allow the player to micromanage stuff (e.g., trade) where Imperium is a more macro-manage type of game. Thus the levels of abstraction differ quite a lot. This is because where the focus of PaxR is (at least as far as I gather) really the short 30-40 year scenario/campaign, Imperium is geared towards the 250 years scenario length.

But history is still in the hotseat; though (quite naturally) it must occasionally bend in the interest of gameplay. My focus has always been to remain faithful to history, without necesarily duplicating it.

I think the main difference (other than turn-based vs real-time, and the level of abstraction) is that Imperium is much less Romano-centric. So you can really have fun trying to keep e.g., Ptolemy Auletes ("The Fluteplayer") and Ptolemy Physcon ("The Fatso") on the throne of Egypt.  ;D

Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2002, 10:05:22 PM »
Turn based gameplay is a very good feature for me, as my Internet speed won't allow me  9 players games in real time.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2002, 07:49:35 PM »
I do agree too that turn-based gameplay is more strategically interesting
A couple of questions: That PaxR thingy sounds interesting. Can anyone send me a link to have a look? ::)
And how do you get those cute images on your signature?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »
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Strategy

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2002, 09:01:05 PM »
Shouldn't advertise for a competitor, but here's the link anyway.

You should be able to get smileys into your signature simply by typing in the appropriate codes  :)  :D  etc.

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2002, 09:48:03 PM »
Thanks, I’m only going to give it a quick look.
;DI meant the faces under your name (Roman, celtic, etc.)
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Re: Looking good
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2002, 10:44:22 PM »
Really shouldn't advertise for a competitor, but PaxR is certainly worth more than just a look. We can only hope that it plays as good as it looks.

To set personalized pictures and personalized text, just click on the Profile link on the top of the pages. You've got 26 avatars to pick from the old game Centurion (or you can use your own, if you want).
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2002, 11:02:21 PM »
I've just had a look and, to be honest, it doesn't impress me much. Politics, diplomacy, graphics, all that is very well but  I miss a realistic tactical combat system as well, as I understand Imperium will have. Maybe I haven't looked in the right places
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charlesf

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2002, 06:59:21 PM »
Everybody looks for different things in a game. Personally, I am far less keen on  tactical aspects - at least in the manner I've seen them done in computergames (having a very limited experience in this area, I must admit).

Pax and Imperium are quite different, but in comparison with Slitherine's Legion (which is far less to my liking) are very close relations.

I think both the faction approach championed by Pax and the more grand strategic perspective of Imperium are highly interesting. I am anxious to see both games and hope Imperium sees the light of the world in not too far a future. Which will be first: First Round of EU Enlargement or Imperium?
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Pijus_Magnificus

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2002, 12:23:19 AM »
I'm afraid I haven't played much computers games although I know most of them, I'm from the old board- wargame school, hence my emphasis on tactical combat.
I just think that there are too many games with an strategic approach and a very abstract combat system, which is a pity. If you have both, you not only have to be good at diplomacy/trade/keeping order in your country, but also at training, looking after, and conducting the troops on the ground. That is a bit of a bigger challenge, and the player who can manage both is truly a genious.
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Tamas

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2002, 12:42:17 AM »
The problem which could arise from a game having a detailed economical, political, and also a tactical military aspect together (beside it takes a huge effort from the creators to unite these things into a really good game)  is that it isn't quite sure a game needs all of these, to be good.

Like in EUII, if I would have to take care of every single battle of the tactical level, I would be angry, as I am interested to care about the "big picture" and not the positioning of my tactical units on the battlefield.

And turning on/off the tactical feature is not a real solution for this kind of games, as the AI tends to be inferior in quick-generated battles (Shogun comes to my mind, altough tact. battles where the main focus there, so it isn't the perfect example).

I think a grand strategical game doesn't need a very detailed battle system.
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Philj

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2002, 05:36:57 AM »
Hello PM & T

IMHO at the Grand Strategic level, the player's role is mainly about resource management and direction.  One of the most important resources is people (in this case generals).  In an ideal world, you could pick to be someone and put yourself in the field as that person.  Not sure how a respawn would work in this case when you inevitably die and are transported to wherever your successor is.

It's incredibly god-like (pick your favourite diety) to be Consul and Centurian at the same time.  Not that I wouldn't play battlefield commander as Stategy has essentially developed (past tense hopefully) but incorporating a detailed tactical simulation stretches the computers resources without increasing the complexity of what should be the decision-making of the role of the player.  

I have no experience of the game but didn't Napoleon 1813 fall over trying to do too much.  I'm not saying it can't be done, but where do we (and Strategy  :)) want the computer's focus to be - -on richer grand strategic decision-making with a grand tactical insight into combat or a less powerful strategic engine but with a stronger tactical one.
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charlesf

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2002, 09:05:10 PM »
Strategy is very ambitious in attempting to combine grand tactics and grand strategy. I hope it will work. In any case, the grand strategic and especially the political aspects are of greatest interest to me.

I feel grand strategy has been much neglected by the industry. There are tons of tactical games on the other hand. Nobody has done a grand strategic treatment of antiquity since Centurion - Defender of Rome, I wagger. I am also a boardgamer, but that doesn't say you're a tactical or strategic enthusiast. It's a matter of taste.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »

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Re: Looking good
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2002, 09:27:17 PM »
Personally, I love tactical games, but hate the "artificiality" of scenarios (e.g., on the last turn you launch a do or die attack, because losses don't matter). I've always felt that it should damn well be possible to have a game that properly spans the gap between strategy and tactics. Especially in the ancient era, this is what war ultimately tended to boil down to - all the fancy maneuvers in the world are worthless if they can not be translated into battlefield success (as Darius found out).

Obviously, there is no need for a game to combine tactical and strategic aspects to be good, but IMO any game set in the pre-1820s era cries out for such an aspect since essentially, strategy and tactics blended together, and the monarchs and princes who ruled the nations were very often the same who fought on the fields of battle.

In Imperium you don't play Consul and Centurion at the same time, you always play Consul (or Consuls) no matter where you are - in the forum, on the strategical map, or on the battlefield. At least if I do the job right.

The problem, of course, is that there is always a risk of creating two mediocre games, rather than one good one. Who knows, that may be how people will view Imperium - though I certainly hope not.

Another problem with strat/tact mix is that you really need a good AI in both parts, or you'll have the entire game being broken. In particular, the tactical AI must be able to challenge the player properly - and that is extremely hard for a computer. This either demands extreme ressources (like for Shogun:TW - and even here the AI is not really all that good) or you have to make the tactical game simple/abstract (like in Conquest of the New World - which has one of the best tactical sub-games I've played; extremely simply, yet also very fun, IMO).

The latter approach is the one taken in Imperium. The balance is, of course, that simplifying it too much can make battles uninteresting. So this is a difficult balancing act.

Actually, I though Napoleon 1813 (which I bought second-hand) was a brilliant game. Or rather - a brilliant concept. Where the whole thing fell to pieces was with a ridiculously inept AI (I recall one game where I marched right on Berlin and ended the war in 6 weeks or so), a bad interface, and a hopeless tactical game (units moved around more or less at random -  sometimes they didn't move at all, combat results were inexplicable - even with the manual, and oh - did I mention a truly lousy AI?). But so much potential.  :'(

Anyway, to get back to Imperium. Where I want you, in Imperium, is to try and immerse you into the thoughts and mindset (or at least what I believe to be the thoughts and mindsets) of a Roman Consul, Carthaginian Patrician, or Hellenistic King. In other words, when you declare war in the game, you do so for much the same reasons as they would have done. When you sue for peace, you do so because you know not to do so would be ruinous (unless you're Roman, in which case you stiffen your upper lip and mutter something about the Phyrros and Claudius). Essentially, I'd like to give the kind of people who roleplay and write long AARs in EU the chance to roleplay and enjoy a strategic game in Ancient Rome, without constantly having to rein themselves in from perfectly sensible (in a gaming sense), but utterly unhistoric behavior.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by 1024524000 »